Leadership has always been a cornerstone of organizational success, but the demands placed on leaders today are shifting dramatically. In Episode 12 of the Life + Leadership Podcast, host Tegan Trovato spoke with Dr. Russell Robinson, a leadership expert and academic, about the urgent need to modernize leadership approaches. Dr. Robinson emphasized that many leaders are relying on outdated strategies that no longer work in today’s post-pandemic, highly polarized, and technologically connected world. Here are some of the key takeaways from this conversation centered on curiosity, adaptability, and fostering inclusive cultures.
The Need for a New Leadership Toolkit
Dr. Robinson offered this powerful statement: “We have leaders utilizing tools that worked 10 to 15 years ago, but they don’t work now.” He described the evolving landscape of leadership, shaped by societal shifts like the COVID-19 pandemic, the global reckoning with systemic racism after George Floyd’s murder, and the complexities of a politically polarized world.
The traditional “command and control” leadership style is losing relevance. Leaders today must embrace curiosity, emotional intelligence, and adaptability to thrive. The modern workplace, defined by hybrid models, generational diversity, and global interconnectedness, demands a fresh set of skills and perspectives.
Core Values for Modern Leadership
Dr. Robinson shared his three core values for effective leadership: availability, confidence, and curiosity. These values, he said, form the foundation for navigating today’s complexities.
- Availability: In an age of burnout and stress, leaders must prioritize being present for their teams. Employees need to feel seen, heard, and valued, especially in high-pressure environments. Dr. Robinson emphasized that availability fosters trust and engagement.
- Confidence: Confident leaders enable confident teams. Dr. Robinson shared how his experience coaching youth soccer taught him that confidence drives performance, whether on the field or in the workplace.
- Curiosity: Perhaps the most critical value, curiosity drives continuous learning and innovation. Dr. Robinson argued that leaders who focus on asking the right questions—rather than always having the right answers—can adapt to change more effectively.
Building a Culture of Curiosity
A recurring theme in the discussion was the importance of curiosity in leadership. Dr. Robinson noted that many leaders, especially those who have been trained and rewarded for being solution-oriented, struggle to shift their focus to asking better questions. However, this shift is essential in a world where ambiguity is the norm.
Tegan Trovato added that fostering curiosity helps organizations adapt to fast-paced changes. She highlighted how Bright Arrow Coaching teaches leaders to become coaches themselves, creating a self-sustaining cycle of learning and growth within teams.
Both agreed that leaders must embrace diverse perspectives, particularly from younger generations like Gen Z, who bring unique values and questions to the table. Encouraging curiosity at all levels creates an environment where everyone feels empowered to contribute.
The Power of Voice Culture
One of the most compelling ideas Dr. Robinson discussed was the concept of a “voice culture.” He defined this as an organizational environment where employees feel safe expressing their thoughts, ideas, and concerns without fear of retaliation.
Before the pandemic, voice culture was primarily about sharing workplace-related feedback. It has evolved to include discussions about mental health, well-being, and broader social issues.
Dr. Robinson stressed that while leaders must listen to employee feedback, they are not obligated to implement every suggestion. The key is acknowledging input and explaining decisions transparently. “If employees don’t feel heard, they won’t speak up,” he cautioned, adding that silence can stifle innovation and hinder organizational growth.
Addressing Generational Differences
Generational diversity is another critical factor reshaping leadership. Dr. Robinson explained that younger generations, particularly Gen Z, have been raised with a strong sense of agency and curiosity. They are more likely to ask “Why?” and seek purpose in their work.
Instead of dismissing these questions as challenges to authority, leaders should see them as opportunities to align organizational goals with individual values. Trovato noted that senior generations often taught these values to younger ones but now struggle with the very questions they encouraged. Bridging this generational divide requires empathy, active listening, and adaptability.
Tackling Complex Problems
Dr. Robinson introduced the concept of complexity in leadership, drawing from Jennifer Garvey Berger’s book Simple Habits for Complex Times. He categorized problems into five types: simple, complicated, complex, chaotic, and disordered.
Leaders often excel at solving simple and complicated problems—those with clear or expert-defined solutions. However, complex problems, like adapting to hybrid work models or addressing systemic inequities, require a different approach. These problems have no single “right” answer and demand patience, collaboration, and innovative thinking.
Dr. Robinson encouraged leaders to avoid rushing decisions. “Urgent problems often require patient solutions,” he said, emphasizing the value of gathering diverse perspectives and taking time to analyze ripple effects.
Emotional Intelligence and Leadership Development
At the heart of Dr. Robinson’s leadership philosophy is emotional intelligence (EQ). He shared how he is instilling this trait in students at American University through a leadership certificate program designed for undergraduates.
“Strong emotional intelligence creates better work experiences,” Dr. Robinson explained, citing data that shows a direct link between EQ and employee satisfaction. By teaching young adults to manage emotions, build resilience, and develop core values early, his program aims to create a new generation of leaders equipped for the challenges of the modern workplace.
DEI and the Voice of Marginalized Groups
The conversation also touched on the weaponization of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) efforts. Dr. Robinson argued that DEI initiatives often lack measurable impact, leading to skepticism from all sides. To address this, leaders must focus on creating inclusive voice cultures that prioritize equity at every level.
Dr. Robinson emphasized the importance of ensuring that marginalized voices are heard and valued. This includes tailoring efforts to reflect the unique demographics of an organization’s workforce and customer base. For example, he noted that a government office in Washington, D.C., must consider the diverse communities it serves when shaping policies and hiring practices.
Embracing Leadership for a New Era
Dr. Robinson’s insights reveal that leadership development strategies must evolve to meet the demands of a rapidly changing world. By embracing curiosity, fostering voice culture, and addressing generational and cultural differences, leaders can create environments where individuals and organizations thrive.
The conversation reminds us that effective leadership is about more than achieving results—it’s about building relationships, empowering others, and continuously learning.
To dive deeper into these powerful ideas, listen to Episode 12 of the Life + Leadership Podcast wherever you stream your favorite shows.
People in This Episode
TRANSCRIPT
Note: This transcript was auto-generated.
Tegan Trovato
Russell Robinson, welcome to the podcast.
Russell Robinson
So you can happy snow day to you since we’re both dealing with snow right now, excited and honored to be a guest on the Life in Leadership podcast.
Tegan Trovato
Yes. We are mutually excited to have you. So our conversation today. come on now. Come on. This is I’m excited for our listeners today because, you know, in our prep call, we went deep fast and everyone who listens to podcasts knows the rapport between the two people chatting is everything. And I left our initial call just really excited and
Russell Robinson
But you gotta aim a little higher, because the bar’s low.
Tegan Trovato
And I hope our listeners will feel that today too. so speaking of that first call, this prep call that we had for this podcast, I want to read a quote to our listeners, which you opened with in our very first conversation. And I’m smiling really big as I say that because I was like, Russell is not here to play. We have real stuff to discuss. And here’s the quote that I grabbed from you. I am worried about leadership development right now in a post pandemic.
Post George Floyd and in a polarized political world. We have leaders who are utilizing tools and a toolkit to lead that worked 10 to 15 years ago and they don’t work now. Hi, powerful quote. And Russell, I’m curious where you might start in terms of talking about what are we still trying to use that’s outdated?
Russell Robinson
Hahaha
Tegan Trovato
And feel free, like let’s just start weaving in the where we need to go from there, you know? So let’s talk about that toolkit and break it down a little bit.
Russell Robinson
Yeah.All right, so I think I’m gonna start with my core values, right? So I have three core values that drive me, curiosity, confidence, and availability.
Right, let’s start with the last one first, like availability. I think in a world where people are burnt out stress and even before COVID, people had a lack of bandwidth to actually say, I am here. I’m going to make myself available to you so that you can feel seen, heard and valued is magical. confidence, I’m 55.
My first leadership transition where it’s like I really started to get it, didn’t happen in the workplace. It happened the seven years I was a U5 to U12 soccer coach. And what I found with when you’re dealing with kids to pre-teens and subsequently works in the workplace, confident people perform better, right? There’s research on that. But let’s get to curiosity, right? I think we need curious learning leaders, who where the focus is not on what is the right answer, but what is the right question. Because when you focus on what is the right question, then you’re always gonna wanna learn. You’re always gonna wanna evolve. You’re gonna say what works now actually may not work in the future. So bringing it back to the quote, if you look at what we’ve got going on right now, a really polarized political world where 50 % of the country feels one way, 50 % of the country feels the other way. The world has become flat now where there’s so many avenues through social media where you can live in an echo chamber. Right? So this idea, right, a self-created echo. So it’s not like when I was a kid and there were like three channels and there was some…
Tegan Trovato
Yeah, right. A self-created echo chamber thanks to algorithms.
Russell Robinson
middle of the road, some lean left and right, but there was some middle of the road. You have these differing perspectives, right? When I entered the work world in 1991, 92, sorry, as a black man, there was an aspect to whatever I felt. And that was around the time of Rodney King, that I was going to need to check that at the door when I got to work. And I think what we’re finding now.
Post George Floyd, if I go back to the massage parlor killings in Atlanta, that’s when I worked in the government and I talked to my Asian American employees and they were just talking about, it’s hard for me to focus on work. So people are bringing this into the workplace. And you know, the hot topic right now is whether we do return to work, hybrid. When I teach my students here at American University, I’m very big that when I entered the workforce, you went to work.
And if you were lucky, you had a CPU, right? You had a big, slow CPU, pre-dial-up, but now the work can come to you. You can hire anywhere. And maybe there’s a hybrid balance. And where I get with all of this is each of those instances are gonna require a different set of skill sets in your leadership toolkit.
Tegan Trovato
Yep.
Russell Robinson
So if you’re saying in 2025, I’m solely relying on what I learned in leadership 2015 and before, I think you’re setting yourself up for individual organizational and operational challenges.
Tegan Trovato
Yeah. Well, my friend, I will agree with you on that. What resonated huge for me is going back to your comment of the power of, I’m paraphrasing, but the power of asking the question over having the answer. And there’s a huge piece that comes up for me. One, our entire value proposition as a company is that we try to help leaders become coaches and self-coaching. And in our team framework, we teach the team to coach itself. So we are like big thumbs up to you in agreement on, yeah, the question, the powers in the question. I mean think the second thing that comes up for me when you say that is this world is so ambiguous and moving so fast that to assume there is a single right answer is so dumb, right? You know, and so being able to ask the question that elicits all the potential answers is where the power is. Especially when to your point, we’re just inundated with information, we’re kind of inundated with options. So I just really appreciate you calling that forward right here at the top of our conversation. I think the question’s everything, totally agree.
Russell Robinson
Yeah. Well, it goes a couple of ways, right? So on one hand, and I go where leadership development has to change. If you have spent 15, 20 years as a leader and you’ve been trained, promoted, paid well, bonused well on always having to answer, that’s a huge transition to say, want the question, right? The second thing I would say is, you know, let’s go back to right before we recorded, right? We talked about snow.
Tegan Trovato
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Russell Robinson
And you’ve got a five-year-old daughter and the fascination with why, right? And kids have a different perspective, right? Last year, my student age range was 18 to 63, right? So I can see where they’re alike. I also see that these Gen Zs have been raised different and they’ve been raised to understand that they have voice, they have agency, they have curiosity. If I tap that down as a leader, and diminish this, or we talk about you with Athena and when she’s asking why you are tapping that down. Well, because I said so and you continue with that role, like their perspective of things is totally different, right? I had a friend who has his own business and he was, this is back when I coached soccer and he was like, hey, I’m trying to get my son to understand, like I was the first person in my family to go to college, I was the first black person at this high school. He doesn’t understand X, Y, Z. And I was like, dude, I can’t get, our kids are the same age. I can’t get my son to understand there was a world with just dial up connection, right? Where only one person could be on, but they have different perspectives. So it goes back to this leadership aspect of asking questions gets to being curious. It also means being comfortable if you’re wrong, right? I used to tell my team,
Tegan Trovato
Right. Yeah.
Russell Robinson
You can call me anything you want as long as you bring me data. Right? If you’ve got data to back it up and I started with values and when I teach, say, hey, look, I hold my values very tight to me, right? Where I work, who I engage with, there has to be a value alignment. My beliefs, not so much. My beliefs are based on data, right? And if you come at me with data and I know how to ask those catalytic questions,
Tegan Trovato
And then, mm-hmm. Right.
Russell Robinson
that spark curiosity and we’ve created this psychological safety where you can be comfortable to take risks. You can be comfortable to be incorrect. You can be comfortable to tell me I am incorrect. Then you’re getting into the magical thing. We’re at an individual level, an organizational level. I saw you had my good friend Maggie Gough, right, for our episode.
Then you get into this mental health and wellness space at an individual and an organizational level. And the upsides of that are fantastic. And it goes back to the original question. Nobody was focusing on this 10 or 11 years ago at this degree.
Tegan Trovato
The thing I want to normalize for this intergenerational work as I hear you talking is that the young Gen Z, I’m going to use hopefully the correct language here to say you know our more senior generations, our younger generations, our younger generations have been raised with some of the values they have and the level of consciousness they have because our older generations felt oppressed not having it.
It didn’t come from nowhere, right? So I think it’s so interesting to watch this rub now at work where our earlier or younger generations are saying, but why? Why are we doing this? How does it connect to a broader purpose? How does it connect to my purpose? Well, we taught them that, number one. So let’s stand in recognition. In some ways, we inspired that. We’re not going to take credit for all their hard work. But something about how we lived our lives has inspired that for them.
We then embrace it and let it enrich our lives and not take it personally that command and control leadership is because I said so right that’s and that way of leading is retiring so fast so it’s just it’s interesting to think that we we are connected as more senior generations with the reason they’re asking that question but yet we’re confronted when they ask us why and what’s the verb so it’s really a fascinating dichotomy, think, you know?
Russell Robinson
Again, if you’re curious, if you create, I’m big on voice culture, right? How do we create the space where everybody has a voice? So with the Gen Zs and the millennials, you can get into this context of I need to see and hear you and how you are experiencing the world, right? How are you sense making the world? But for all the things where we’re alike,
I mean, for all the things where we’re different, we’re alike. For all generations, people want to feel valued. They want to feel a sense of connection. They want to feel like they’re respected. They want to feel like they are heard. They want to feel like there is alignment between what they do and the mission of the company and the organization. And as a Gen Xer, when I talk to my students, I got three kids, 33, 31, and 24, when I talk to my 24 year old the big conversation is, hey, at the end of the day, the world is about results, how you perform, but more importantly, how you build relationships, right? And with students who come to school and they believe if I just study real hard, I’ll get a great job and my career will go fantastically on this great path upward. And it’s me to say, hey, like here, you have your contacts.
Let me give you my experience. Right, in your entire lifetime, I’ve had four jobs. Each job, when I got into the address of the interview, my ability to perform was what got me the job. What got me the address where the interview was, was a previous relationship with somebody. Here’s how you focus on results and relationships. There’s also this aspect of right.
Tegan Trovato
You
Russell Robinson
life will take you in different directions, right? This idea that you’re gonna get a degree, get a job, get married, that’s your only marriage and you’re married to the perfect person and there are no health challenges and you’re gonna have kids and when friends and family members die, it’s in the proper order. That’s not the way life is. Life comes at you fast. So when you spark this curiosity,
Tegan Trovato
Right. That’s right.
Russell Robinson
and you focus on resilience. And that’s where I say we have the context because we have experience. And then you bring it back to them and say, hey, look, this is what adulting is. It’s research. You do your data. You gather your data. You do your due diligence. And then you make a decision. And it may work. And it may not work. So I think there’s a voice. There’s an aspect of context.
And that being said, while I’m Gen Xers, we have baby boomers in the world who may think life is moving really fast. I have value. I don’t want to be ignored. And while the technology has changed and things are happening a lot quicker and the world is a lot faster, at the end of the day, it goes back to have you built relationships with people? And that’s older. That goes back to like official formal leadership training.
Leadership training really started in the early 1900s, but relationships, mean, we’re in the States, but the relationship of where we became as a country goes back to pre 1700s. So the power of relationships, that’s the things we can share. As long as people know you have a culture or relationships where people know that they can be heard, they can be valued, they can be considered, that’s how you set things up for.
for wins and positivity.
Tegan Trovato
So that brings me to the voice culture conversation. I’m using air quotes when I say voice culture. It’s a phrase that you use to describe an ideal state for employees to be able to be expressed. So how would you define that for listeners, and why is that important?
Russell Robinson
Yeah, so a voice culture, like, let me put on my Dr. Russ hat, right? So what I would probably say pre-COVID, pre-George Floyd, that voice would be an employees, we’ll say in the workplace, an employees having thoughts, ideas, concerns about the organization or the workplace, and them feeling that they can articulate that to their leadership or a change agent, and it can be heard or valued.
Tegan Trovato
Yes.
Russell Robinson
Right. Post George Floyd, I would say all of that and include how employees feel about their mental health and well-being. Right. And I think there’s there’s work from the Surgeon General of the Vic Murphy on mental health and well-being that that one of the goal is to get to worker voice where you capture all of that. Now, what that means is when you let me jump into my leadership hat. When I’m hearing things from employees, that means
I’m going to hear it. That doesn’t mean I’m going to do it. And let’s go for something simple like a poll survey. A poll survey says, in regards to the return to work, we want three things, A, B, or C. As a leader, I’ve heard it. I’ve listened to it. I’ve asked follow-up. And I say, hey, we can do A. We can do B. But we can’t do C. And here’s why we can’t do C. But you you’re heard. If it’s a situation where, right, right. But if it’s a thing where it’s just a check the box exercise, like,
Tegan Trovato
It’s acknowledgement, right? The power of acknowledging.
Russell Robinson
they’re not gonna act on it, then I’m not gonna share my information with you. The biggest reason why people do not share their thoughts, ideas, concerns, or how they feel about their wellness is because they feel that there will be an adverse or negative impact to their career. And that’s where I go back to where I said earlier about when you have curiosity, then we’ve created this space where if I’m the leader, you can disagree with me. I’ve worked in situations where we actually had an organizational value of curiosity.
And every employee knew that if you were curious around the CFO, that was the end of your career. He just wanted you to do whatever he was told. And where that works, the organizational impact, Tegan, is let’s say I’m the CEO. You coach CEOs, right? CEO, 500 employees, maybe like, I mentioned Maggie for second ago. So let’s say Maggie is our frontline action officer. I’m the CEO and there are five layers between us. She’s interacting with my customers, our customers in a way where she’s getting information I don’t. Right? So a customer could be unhappy or they could be like, you’re zigging instead of zagging or something that we’re doing is maybe like check the box. The customer’s like, that’s great. Have we created a culture where she can articulate that up to chain? Cause in the end, you know, I started with employee voice.
But it is also this aspect of how do we give our customers voice where they can be heard. I’m in an academic setting. So I do student voice and a lot of research on student voice gets to, we want to empower our students to exercise agency out in the world after they have a degree. I bring it into the class place. Okay, chapter eight, we’ve got these four topics. Here’s a quick pulse survey. Let me know which one you want to do a deep dive on. So I think when you do that and it gets to having curious people not just training it, right? A lot of what we have, it really gets to, this is part of talent management. How are we, we hiring, training and promoting the people who do this type of work? And here’s the impact you have, right? We’re in a world where DEI has been weaponized, right? But when you focus on a voice culture, then for me, my goal as a leader is, I wanna give everybody a voice. I wanna make sure that in this scenario, who has the marginalized voice?
Tegan Trovato
Yeah, right.
Russell Robinson
and making sure that they can be heard. So when you focus on a voice culture as a by-product, and let’s be clear, if you have a value of respect and curiosity and innovation, then by default, you should be embodying a voice culture. But when you do that, and then I’m gonna shut up, because you know got my flow going, right? When you do that,
Tegan Trovato
The point of the podcast is your flow, so please continue.
Russell Robinson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I get like Stevie Wonder accepting the award at the Grammys and you got to play music to get me to shut up, But when you have a strong voice culture, then diversity is a byproduct. Organizational and individual mental health and well-being is a byproduct. Customer service is a byproduct. Performance is a byproduct. Creating a strong talent management and strong culture are byproducts. again, it’s a little, you have, hey, you have to have leaders who care, right? And, you know, sometimes one of my good friends said, if you can’t change the people, you have to change the people. You have to have leaders who care. And then you have to have leaders who want what they say they want, right? Because what that means is if I’m a new leader and I’ve got a senior leader who doesn’t model this voice culture and I’ve articulated a voice culture, then that gets to a difficult conversation. Because if I don’t, if I don’t ensure that top up to top down, that we’re, we’re, we’re embodying this espoused philosophy, then odds are you’re not going align to your values.
You’re not gonna align to a culture. And if that’s the way you want to go, then you gotta be prepared to have a huge pipeline of potential customers, because you’re gonna lose customers. You have to have a huge pipeline of talent, because you’re going to lose talent. I’m gonna shut up now, I got, you know, I I think I’ve been talking for like 10 minutes.
Tegan Trovato
Yeah. No, I’m gonna pull that thread. I’m gonna pull a thread out of that. So here we go. D-E-N-I and employee engagement. You mentioned how it’s been weaponized. You know, at the time of us recording this, I’m not sure there’s a hotter topic other than return to work being probably equally hot.
Russell Robinson
Right, right,
Tegan Trovato
If you’re listening to this podcast and you’re already feeling triggered about the DEI topic, keep letting it roll. Keep your brain open. Keep your heart open. Russell, I’d like to hear your thoughts on where we are with that and its impact on employee culture.
Russell Robinson
Yeah, so the challenge, mean, gosh, you can go a few different directions with DEI, right? And I could wear a few different hats, right? Before I started teaching at American, I worked in the government doing training and development. And my challenge with the DEI practitioners is like, is there any impact to what you’re doing? Right? Or better yet, how do you define it? Right? Or, or.
Tegan Trovato
Which again, great question that you know leaders are still asking today. So thanks for coming with that. Yeah.
Russell Robinson
Right. Or, or, or if you’re in an intersectionality, can you define intersectionality without referencing Kimberley Crenshaw? Now, if they say who is Kimberley Crenshaw, then it’s like, well, then this is maybe you need to stay in the lane you’re in. Right. For me to make it simple, I believe your workforce should look like your customer base, the regions where you, you operate and your industry.
Right? That’s your workforce. Your leadership should look like your workforce. Right? So, I mean, I live in Washington, D.C. So, a lot of government vendors come to Washington, D.C. without realizing a lot of your customer base are going to be Black people. And from an Asian, from an Asian aspect, Filipinos and Filipinas. From a Latino perspective, El Salvadorans and Guatemalans, right? And then, you know, as a sidebar, not all ethnicities are a monolith, right? So that’s probably a different answer to a different question. So I need to make sure that my workforce looks like my customer base. When I worked in the government, I was doing training and delivery. I wanted to make sure that every employee could see themselves in a trainer to the point where when I would look at my vendors, I’d be like, hey, look, I got enough black trainers, I got enough white trainers, I got enough LGTBQ trainers, I need Hispanic trainers, I need South Asian trainers, I need Asian trainers. I want everybody in my workforce to see a trainer who looks like them. Why? Because on one hand, people love to learn and align and see the end state to be people who look like them, who came where they came from and experienced life as they experienced. The next aspect of is if you want to grow your country, you have to have that. But then you have to have people who don’t look like you, people who didn’t come from where you come from and who didn’t experience what you experienced. So employee engagement is my thing with employee voice. And there’s an article from 1990 by Bill Kahn, which is like on the academic side, like that’s the seminal work, right? And it’s funny, he came out in 1990 and four years ago in 2020, and there was a lot of 30 year stuff with him. And he said, hey, look, I never intended for employee engagement to turn into this survey and consulting business, but I went back and read the original article, right? From 1990. And then in future research, he said, this research that I’ve started to do, is very westernized and middle to upper income white people. Future research should bring other groups in, other demographics in. I have a really good friend who I was on her dissertation panel and it looked at employee engagement in Middle Eastern banks, right? Because what we found was how they experience the world is different, right? Where their similarity is a lot of the engagement that got them through COVID was a spirituality base, which would be the same, but you’re talking about different religions, so it’s different. So that would get to me as a leader that says, just came from the holidays, right? So we focused on Christmas, we focused on Hanukkah. But if I have Muslim employees, I need to do some research on Ramadan, right? So that we are making people feel seen, heard, and valued. And that’s the case for diversity. And the last thing I would say is I had a gentleman by the name of Dwight Deneil, who’s in charge of small business at NASA. And he said, with today’s technology and what we’re trying to do at NASA, we’re trying to get a man on
I think before the end of this decade, the big normal vendors, they’re not as agile as the smaller businesses. That’s why we may need to bring them in. And then we start to look at our vendors as partners. So again, if you go into that depth, then you’ve made the case for diversity. I think from a political standpoint, you have to say where we’re talking about the weaponization.
Tegan Trovato
Yeah.
Russell Robinson
There’s a group of people who feel diversity is a threat to them. I don’t really know if I agree with it. I know my friends who have that view. We can sit and chat because I may get a new perspective, right? Or I may see something where it’s like, OK, how do we as we implement this diversity policy in play? How am I making sure that the white men in my workforce are seeing there’s a benefit to them and or benefit to the organization and them. And if they have fears that again, I’ve created a space where they can bring their voice and put it out. So I think to sum it up, it’s been very narrowly focused on all sides. I just sometimes I just don’t know what the impact is.
Tegan Trovato
Yeah, it’s going to be an interesting 18 months, if I had to guess, of seeing what some of the bigger organizations choose to do or not do. Small mention. Yeah, yeah.
Russell Robinson
but it gets to a pendulum, right? So if you look at, if you look at post George Floyd, the pendulum swung one way, returned to work when everybody was, we’re gonna all work from home, the pendulum swung one way, and eventually it’s gonna move back to, back to the center, right? And, and, and, but you need to have leaders that are prepared for all of that, who have created this space for my voice culture standpoint.
Tegan Trovato
Yes.
Russell Robinson
Where they know where their workforce is. And that also gets into like succession planning, right? Cause if I’m doing return to work and I say everybody has to be in the office, I got some employees who’ll be like, cool, that’s great. I got employees who may like, that’s not what I want. If I’ve created, you had my guy, Jason Larson up there. The easiest way to do a voice culture is a check-in. If I’m doing check-ins, then I’m gonna know where my employees are as these policies come down. And then I can do succession planning.
Tegan Trovato
We’ll be sure to bring back Maggie Gough’s interview and Jason Lauritsen’s interviews and our show notes too, so you all can, listeners can kind of tack back to what Russell’s talking about there. The other thing you mentioned that I’ll reconnect now to this part of our conversation, Russell, is when we do, in the voice culture, ask for the feedback, especially now when we’re talking about the topic of DE &I there’s things we’re going to do and not do, we must at least acknowledge what we heard.
And that’s going to take some courage for some organizations who may choose to do the unpopular thing, who may choose to do the opposite of what employees have asked. But the power is really in, we heard you and here’s what we heard. Here’s our decision and here’s why. And you mentioned that earlier, but I want to reconnect that now to this conversation because this topic is right here, right now, and it’s going to be in front of us for quite a while longer as it should be and hopefully we continue to do what’s in the best interest of the organization and the people because the two are not really separate as we know from the data. So it’s going to be a really interesting couple of years on that front. The other thing is mentioning the pendulum. So one of the things about pendulums.
Isn’t it true scientifically that they exist? But sometimes our margins get a little broader, which is good. So the center is not the center it was before, if that makes sense.
Russell Robinson
Yeah, but I think the key is whether you think your pendulum, your organizational pendulum is swung too far, one direction with DEI or return to work. If you’re doing a voice culture, and I think the challenge with what we’re seeing right now is an external stakeholder is putting pressure on organizations and then they’re acting, right?
If I’m a CEO and I think we need to have return to work, then the first thing I’m going to do is I’m going to slow down. I think too many times organizations and leaders make quick decisions when a slower decision may be better. And if it’s return to work or you’re altering DEI or any other major policy, then I think there’s value in taking time to say who are all the stakeholders, right? If I’m a publicly traded company, who’s my board of directors? Who are my customers? Who are my employees? Who’s my union? If my union’s involved. Who are my suppliers? And let’s bring all this data in. And you again, you make it to the point where like this is not unanimous. This may not even be consensus. I need to gather all of this data.
And then based on the data, I can make a decision. And then that says, OK, if I’m operating, you know, I won’t use black people, if I’m operating in the Bay Area where there are a lot of Asian people and I’m coming up with a DEI model that may not be at the end of the day, that may not be important to them, then how am going to communicate it? Then I’m going to look at my team and say, if you’re doing check-ins and you created this voice culture, who’s going to stay? Who’s going to go so that we can succession plan? I think with return to work, a lot of times there are differing perspectives, right? I live in Washington, DC. It’s a heavy government town.
But there are also mom and pop businesses near federal agencies that their lifeblood is federal employees, right? My cleaners, where I am during COVID, they got no business because people were not going to work. So if you’re gonna bring employees in, there’s gonna be an upside, a downside, upside, downside ripple effect. If you keep everybody at home, there’s gonna be an upside, downside ripple effect.
I think the question is how do you address all of that in your decision-making? And again, I think the challenge we have right now is there was this rush to send everybody to 100 % remote work, and now there’s a rush to bring people in. There was a rush to move DEI to DEI, and now there’s a rush to move away from it without understanding the impact that is gonna have on the workforce and also the customers.
Tegan Trovato
Yeah you are queuing me up to ask you about the next thing I want to chat about with you which is a complex problem. So you and I talked earlier offline privately about what it really takes. What are we solving and what does it really take to solve it? And I think the topics we just mentioned are great examples of complex problems but talk a bit about that in your leadership development work. What you’re seeing and what listeners should really be thinking about when it comes to this topic.
Russell Robinson
So a complex problem to me is a problem where there is no answer. Right. Let me let me put my teaching hat on. Right. There’s an author named Snowden. There’s a book called by Jennifer Garvey Burger called Simple Habits for Complex Times. Great book. Great book. Right. So it breaks. It breaks problems in the five in the five parts. Right. They’re simple, complicated, complex and chaos and disorder.
Tegan Trovato
That out. Haven’t heard of that one. Thank you.
Russell Robinson
So let’s get the easy one out the way for disorder. There’s no plan, right? That’s you saw Independence Day, right? So if earth gets invaded by aliens, right? There’s no, there’s no plan for that, right? I think we have leaders who are built to solve simple and complex problems, right? A simple problem is something where I know what the answer is, right? So if, if for example, I haven’t traveled since COVID and now I have to travel. Odds are my, whatever travel software you’re using, my password has expired, right? I need a new password. That’s real simple, right? In the old days, you would call somebody. Now you can, with AI technology, you can reset your link. Really simple, Complicated problem.
I don’t know the answer, but someone on my team does. Right. Or a perfect example, you’re driving, your engine light comes on. You have no idea what’s going on. Right. You go, you go to the good year, you go to the car dealer, they get it to the mechanic, the expert, they run a diagnostic. Mr. Travato, here’s your problem. You can do A, B or C. Right. That’s what leadership is based on. There’s always an answer. When there isn’t an answer, right. How do we, how do you, if I’m a leader, where everything about leadership is based on employees going to the workplace. And it’s a generation of workers that look like me and they’re my age and my experience. And now we have to create a new model with a much more diverse group of employees, different generations, and people technically don’t have to go into the office. The work can come to them. Well, that’s something new.
There is no answer to that. And chaos, know, chaos is the perfect case for command and control because you need to stop what’s going on, right? The building’s on fire. don’t have to, hey, Tegan, what do you think’s the best? No, you get out, right? But when you have complex, well, command and control doesn’t work. And what we have found is, and it goes back to our original question. If you rely, on your skill sets to answer a question that worked 10 years ago now, that actually may make it worse. So what we found is, OK, how do you ask questions? How do you seek multiple perspectives? And how do you see these things as a system? And the one thing I would also say is, I think when I work with leaders, there is this belief that urgent problems require urgent solutions. And in actuality,
Urgent problems require patient solutions, right? If it’s not chaotic, if a building’s not gonna collapse and somebody’s not gonna die, there is always time. I’m an NBA fan and I can’t remember the game, but last year there was a game in the playoffs. A team was down by one with 3.7 seconds left, right? That’s not a lot of time. And they threw it into a guy and he just caught it and shot the ball, it missed. And the announcer’s like.
There was time. He could have dribbled a couple of times. He could have made a pass. So even when you think there isn’t time, there is time. So how do we get to a point where we are making patient decisions? We’re doing our due diligence. My tech skills are not good. So if I know I have a look at a technology software or something.
I got to bring my CTO in. I got to bring the technological expert in because they’re going to ask the questions I didn’t think about. Or I’m going to see the ripple effect of systems. Right. And I go back to return to work. If you decide on a whim that we are going to bring everybody back into the workplace. And when I worked in government, we did a Pulse survey, we did an engagement survey and a Pulse survey. And what we found was
Work-life balance and recognition were the biggest drivers of engagement. So if we make a move that says everybody must return to the office, then we know that’s gonna have an adverse impact on work-life balance. What’s the ripple effect of that? And you may be thinking,
Tegan Trovato
Mm-hmm.
Russell Robinson
Now, I had a friend whose company did a return to work solely because they had rented out more office space, right? And the CEO felt like we need to utilize the space. That’s a good perspective. That needs to be factored in. But if you see things as a system, then you understand the impact. So let’s make it simple to what you do, right? At Bright Arrow. And what I have always felt is that training, executive coaching is really good for a leader with a problem. It’s not good for a problem leader, right? It’s not the antibiotic for a bad leader, or let’s bring it to diversity, right? There are a lot of companies that feel like, wow, we just need to offer unconscious bias training. And sometimes…
Tegan Trovato
Very well said. You. That’s right.
Russell Robinson
10 % of the time that may work and those are the cases they celebrate, but you’re a woman, right? So the cool thing is when I talk to women leaders about this, it’s like there’s something where maybe a guy, an older generation may refer to you in a way that he thinks is affectionate. And you may be like, really don’t, that really grates me. But we’ve created a culture. So like when I got this office, our associate director,
Tegan Trovato
Mm-hmm.
Russell Robinson
I was like, you know, it’s fine. It looked like a dorm room, right? No, I really think we should do something. And one Friday when I was out, they really tightened it up. And the next week I was like, yeah, man, you know, she gave it a woman’s touch. And the third time I said it, she was like, you know, I also gave it a professional touch. I was like, wow. OK, that’s my bad, right? But we had built a relationship where she could be like, he doesn’t mean anything by it. I can articulate my voice to him. a… Right.
Tegan Trovato
and let them know my preference in how, yeah, that’s right.
Russell Robinson
But as a woman, you know, I think there may be times in the workforce where you have dealt with predators and that’s a hiring issue. That’s not an unconscious bias issue. So you really have to see these things really as a system to really understand if we’re not asking the right questions, then if we have a predator in the workplace, then the typical answer of unconscious bias training actually is going to make that situation worse as opposed to asking the right questions, finding out what the real problem is and coming back with a solution that works. But that takes time, that takes, that means creating a voice culture, that means giving everybody a perspective. And that’s where I go back to, those are different types of tools that need to be in a leader’s toolkit.
Tegan Trovato
Yes, yes. this is so rich. And you know, I’m gonna go back a few minutes to pull out one thing, just acknowledge it that I loved so much. I will be using this with my clients here forward. The value of pacing over agility. We have over indexed to the urgent. I just really appreciate that call out Russell because we work with senior executive teams. They are the ones who set the pace. So they think everything’s on fire. It’s on fire for everybody. But the potentially challenge where we can to that pacing has its equal value to agility because we have glorified agility in the executive space as you know in the org dev space. I’m just excited about that one. Nerdily excited about our opportunity to bring that up in our next session or two with clients to have them really weigh the value of like what’s what is more valuable here a paced decision with data or an agile decision with risk and We forget that we have the former option a lot and that is really coming up for me. Thanks to you. So thanks good stuff
Russell Robinson
Well, there’s always, there’s always time, right? And if you’re hiring, like I learned you and you learned us the hard way. You never rush to make a good hire because bad hires are stuck with you forever, right? Excuse my French. In my organization, I would rather have a hole than an asshole, right? It really gets to understanding what time is. And a lot, again, if nobody is going to die.
Tegan Trovato
Yeah. Yeah.
Russell Robinson
If a building is not going to collapse, there is always time. And when you have a patient decision, then you always have the opportunity to bring stakeholders in. I remember I was working with a client to do organizational cultures, Chief Human Resource Officer was like, it was culture, but we started with org values. Chief Human Resource Officer is like, like new values and I like to have them in a month. And we went back and we said, what do we gain to you in three months? Right there. And in that time, we’re gonna create these touch points to the workforce. We’ll roll some out, we’ll survey. In addition, when we give you the values, we’ll give you the values, we’ll define the values. And then we’ll give you examples of the behavior that gets rewarded or held accountable. And it worked great. We put together a team that were we were going to come up with five values because I’m really big on there shouldn’t be more than five values. But we came up with initial 10 and polled the workplace employees. Right. So now they have ownership in this. And what you found by was by taking two months, two months longer, you had less, less resistance. You were then able to come up with ways that you can implement it into how you do, into how you recognize employees. Right. We’ve identified the behavior.
Tegan Trovato
Beautiful.
Russell Robinson
How do we recognize Tegan for what she did, but also include those values in it? So I think with leaders, and again, we’re in this world where everything needs to happen right now. Actually it doesn’t, right? When you get frustrated and somebody sends you something, it’s like, I’m gonna fire off a response right now. And it’s like, no, I actually got time. Okay, let me walk around. Let me think about it. Let me ruminate on what they said, but there’s always time.
Tegan Trovato
Yeah, right.
Russell Robinson
And I think a segue is as an employee or as a person, as a person on the soccer team, as a person in a relationship. started off, before we started recording, talking about your daughter and my kids. Everybody has agency. So how do you understand that you have agency? Even when you’re disengaged, even when you’re in a bad spot, you have agency.
And if you’re a leader, how do you make sure that everybody who has agency has voice and that they are heard? I think you’re setting yourself up for the win, for wins at an individual and organizational level.
Tegan Trovato
Well, just to add a little humor, I’m going to ask our listeners to use a sound bite from Russell’s last few minutes here in your next talent development planning session or your next continuity planning session. I’d rather have a hole in my org chart than an asshole. If you manage to use that quote, email Russell and I and I will send you a gift.
Russell Robinson
Yeah
Tegan Trovato
There’s just so much power in saying, you know, let’s not force something into the seat that’s not right for us. And also I’m looking for a little humor today.
Russell Robinson
Listeners, she’s gonna send you an emerald air fryer, man. Those things are magical.
Tegan Trovato
Russell, one last piece as we’re concluding today. I’m curious about the EQ work you’re doing with your first year students. Can you tell our listeners about that a bit?
Russell Robinson
Yeah, so a little bit about what I do. I teach at American University. I teach leadership, public admin, master’s level, MPA, master’s in public administration, to our government employees, also our regular students, certificate programs to our government employees. it’s really, our government program is based on turning ordinary managers into extraordinary leaders. And we decided to replicate that with and turn it in to a leadership certificate program for undergraduates. And I’m fascinated by it. Looking at within schools of public administration, we’re the only ones in the top 25 that are doing this at an undergraduate level. And because what we find is it’s never too early to start focusing on training leadership.
And to do it, so to do it with 18 year olds. we look at, I had a student getting back to the last question, he talked about a good leader makes decisions quickly, right? Okay, well, let me explain how that doesn’t work. How that may not be the best all the time, but at the end of the day, when I sum up to what we’re doing, we’re creating more emotionally intelligent leaders, right? For listeners, if you think about, your eyes, let me put on my employment engagement researcher hat.
Tegan Trovato
Amen to
Russell Robinson
Close your eyes, think about your best work experience. Think about your worst work experience. The data says the biggest determinant of a good work experience and a bad work experience is the relationship with your direct supervisor. The data also says leaders with strong emotional intelligence create a better work experience than leaders with low emotional intelligence. So let’s start this when they’re early in their learning journey.
But these are 18 year olds, right? So, right. I got first generations, right? Who’ve never got less than a 4.0 and then their first paper is a C and they think the world’s ending, right? So that gets to resilience. I’ve got students who come from small towns and now they’re in Washington, DC and maybe it’s a little too big for them. So our text work focuses on emotional intelligence as it relates to young adults and college students. because what we’re starting to do is what our goal is, is to start to build this leadership muscle now so that they understand emotional intelligence and they come up with a foundation of leadership. What are your core values, your definition of leadership, your non-negotiables? How do you react to when life goes sideways for you, right? When things do not go well. And what we say is, we’re looking at is,
Tegan Trovato
amazing.
Russell Robinson
We build this foundation early. None of these kids are gonna, I graduated in four years and I’m supervising 500. But if you have a job where all things are the same and it’s a choice between working for Teagan and working for Russell, and you know what? I’ve asked questions where Russell really doesn’t care about my voice and he’s a micromanager. Tegan has talked about how I can be involved in the decision-making process and the last four people who came in at this position were promoted to X, Y, and Z, then the decision who to work for is a lot simpler. But if you start to build this muscle now and you start to build curiosity to curious people, let’s go back to your daughter, Athena. If you fuel curiosity instead of tamping it down, odds are you are gonna create leaders know how to deliver results because they’re going to know how to make strategic decisions because they know how to solve complex problems. And they know how to build relationships. And those are the type of people that organizations want to hire and people want to work for.
Tegan Trovato
Oh gosh, I’m so proud of your organization, your university for being early to market on this one. This is what we all need exposure to, arguably even earlier than college, but heck yes, to college, that’s way earlier. I mean, if you think about it, we’re doing some of that work with leaders who are in their 40s, 50s, and 60s, and it’s their first time. So to get them at 18 is going to change the world. That’s how we change the world, right? Is that earlier access early leader, beautiful stuff, Russell.
Russell Robinson
So it’s not just a one-to-one comparison, right? But if you go to a household where a child, your daughter’s age or younger, are learning bilingual languages, the learning capacity is earlier as opposed to if they start to learn a second language at 15. If you bring all of this into people, curiosity, emotional intelligence, voice, culture,
Tegan Trovato
Right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Russell Robinson
before they get in this leadership journey, before they have been programmed that the way to get promoted is to always have the eye, always have to have the right answer. The benefits down the road are gonna be exponential.
Tegan Trovato
Yeah, huge ripple effects. So in conclusion today, my friend, if you were to imagine you have a mic, you’ve got an auditorium of thousands of senior leaders, as someone whose work is focused on developing leaders, what would you want them to know and go back to their practice with today?
Russell Robinson
Right, so I would ask them a question. Take how you felt about leadership in 2019. And we’ll say 2020, early 2020, because it’s 2025 now. In the past five years, what have you read, learned or experienced that has changed some aspect of how you view, espouse or embody leadership?
Tegan Trovato
You. I cannot get enough of that question. So what a lovely way to conclude us today. Russell, thank you so much for your wisdom and your friendship through this process. It’s been so fun talking with you and even preparing for our time together. And thank you for the great work you’re doing in the world. I know you know this, but I’ll say it out loud. What you’re doing changes generations, and that is worthy purpose-oriented work. So thank you.
Russell Robinson
Thank you again, man. It’s just honored to be on the Life and Leadership podcast. You got a stellar group of people. So the fact that you asked me to share my little bit of knowledge, I’m honored by that. So same to you for the work that you’re doing with Bright Arrow. We need better leaders badly. So anybody that’s doing the work, I’m a fan of.
Tegan Trovato
Thank you Russell.
Russell Robinson
Thank you.